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Episode 8

Democratizing Chip Design with Efabless

  • Mohamed Kassem
  • CTO, Efabless
Aired: June 22, 2023

Mohamed Kassem, co-founder and CTO of Efabless, joins John Cole in this week’s Circuit Talk: Funders and Founders. Beginning with a brief but informative history of his position within the industry, Kassem dives into what he feels are the most pressing issues facing the semiconductor industry. From workforce development to the need for a semiconductor major in undergrad, Kassem and Cole engage in a wide-ranging discussion centered around the future of the domestic industry and how efabless is putting in a concerted effort to shape it into something accessible for all.

View Transcript


00:09 | John Cole 

Welcome to Circuit Talk: Funders and Founders. I'm John Cole, senior manager on the semiconductor team at MITRE Engenuity. We are a nonprofit dedicated to solving problems for a safer world. Our semiconductor team is hard at work meeting the nation's challenges around semiconductor breakthrough technologies and the CHIPS Act. Circuit Talk: Funders and Founders as part of MITRE Circuit Talk podcast and video series. And it elevates the revolutionary disruptive work being done by semiconductor entrepreneurs and investors. This is an exciting time to be working with semiconductor startups, the nation is waking up to just how critical they are to our national and economic security. I'm joined today on Circuit Talk: Funders and Founders by Mohamed Kassem, founder and CTO of Efabless. Mohamed founded Efabless in 2014, with the goal of creating a world where 14-year-olds can design a chip. Mohamed studied Electronics and Communication Engineering at Ain Shams University and then earned an MS in Electrical Engineering at the University of Waterloo. He started his career at Mentor Graphics and developed analog and mixed signal chips there and then later moved on to TI where he led a team designing mixed signal chips. Mohamed's work at Efabless has covered everything from open source design, fab operations, and software development, just like a great entrepreneur should. So welcome, Muhammad. 


01:35 | Mohamed Kassem 

Thank you very much, John. Thanks for the opportunity to have me here. 


01:39 | John Cole 

It was great to have you here. Thanks for coming on. You've had quite a journey before starting Efabless. What did you do before you start Efabless? What was that journey? Like? And how did it lead you to founding Efabless and solving the problems you solve there?  


01:53 | Mohamed Kassem 

So, on the, on the journey, in general, you plan something and some other things happen in that. So that's the standard story. So I was, I grew up in, I grew up in Egypt. And once I graduated, I was one of the first people to start the Office of Metrographics in Cairo. In literally I went I traveled to get the CDs, and install them in Egypt and work with customers there. So I'm primarily, I was doing technology transfer and team building. So I would go to the U.S. and travel back to Egypt and build a team until for five years and then I switched, I wanted to go to actual design company to chip design company and, and I went to University of Waterloo and through that I got an internship at TI and at TI, back then people don't know that it's not like something known, but at TI in the year 2000, the Nokia phones that are all over the world were chips, the chips were made by TI and and most people talk about the calculator. But the basically TI started the digital throne revolution in terms of chip development, and delivery. So I was time in place and all the stars aligned, I got into, into the group, the wireless group, which, interestingly enough, it was not just the design group, we were the driver team that takes the any new technology in the semiconductor space that is TI developed and build chips on it. And we've worked closely with the process developers and the technology teams to come up with a better design. And that experience was you know, for me it was incredibly useful and it just it made my career to be able to understand the from the top of the design business requirements all the way to what devices did we actually work with the process development guys to, to define and read later realize that TI back then was making their own silicon before the TSMC and UMC and all these companies have been were actually TI was a customer for them for this. So, during TI’s journey, I actually sought several, you know, I you know, I have the habit of seeking mentors. Even if they're, they're outside our organization. So there was, I sought the head of the analog business unit TI, his name is Greg Lowe back then he's now in a different position now, CEO of Wolfspeed. But I asked for mentorship and he was very generous and said, okay, let's do it again. Do you want to do this again, I did that but the analog business has a very interesting property is that there are three or four people can actually design something and then it becomes a product. And TI is providing the sales organization. And then application, which includes Application Engineering, and then the entire engineering is three people. So for product line, that's not for every product, but there are many products that are like this. So that opened the door is like, okay, so why can't we do this in an open way, when I say in an open way, meaning that, enable people to design and provide the sales mechanism to connect and sell products, or in this case, custom chips,  


05:42 | John Cole 

So that, that exposure at TI kind of opened you up to the full stack, right, like working, working in analog chips allows you to sort of see it sounds like sort of every aspect of both design and manufacturing. 


05:55 | Mohamed Kassem 

Yes, indeed, I left the AI in 2011. And, it was a actually, it was 2011. And then I started, didn't start Efabless right away, I knew that I needed some components that include especially the relationships with the foundries to be developed and make the case for them that this is a good business case, the to work in such an open model. And I spent for that, about two years in when I was doing consulting for a project at MIT, that enabled me to meet the foundry management for seven foundries. It was a different just landed on me from, from another unprecedented, you know, I didn't know this complete statistical probability, very low. So, and then I started talking to the foundry managers, management, and then the first foundry was X-FAB in Germany. 


07:08 | John Cole 

So how did that evolve? What does Efabless do today? And how did that kind of evolve into that? 


07:13 | Mohamed Kassem 

So, Efabless goal is, is think about it as we want to build, we have a platform that enables somebody to take 13 floors of a building, and then add another 15, and then other another five, and then they're gone, they're ready to go. So, the closest example of that is the App Store. There's a stack, there's standards, there are quality metrics, all that, and then you add the apps. Now, the apps, a lot of them are not judged. Or not, they don't have a financial return, okay? Or they don't even hear about it. Okay. So that's called free market where somebody puts an app, and it doesn't get a pull. So. we wanted to do that. And with another with another aspect that doesn't exist in the app stores, which is I can request something. So. I can come in and say okay, I need something that does this A, B and C. And then on the other side, there is a huge stadium of experts, you know, all over the world that actually can bid on it or take it and solve the problem. And we provide everything in between. 


08:25 | John Cole 

So Mohamed, the the Efabless platform allows a grad student or an entrepreneur or almost anybody to access a PDK and the software to come in and design their own chip right, you have something called, I think, a caravel, which has the infrastructure that gets them started and then they can go in and start to design everything how they like, is that right? 


08:47 | Mohamed Kassem 

Yes, yes. And then let me, I'd like to share a picture or just an assisting slide to make the border because it makes a big difference. So, the exam, the example here, this is caravel, I mentioned earlier that it you need to start if you start from the 15th floor to reach 20. So we provide a chip and then the designer will focus on a piece of the chip that is not designed today. And, and they get a board so if you think about this from multiple perspectives, one is, it introduces the time to design so youfocus on your IP, so you get it. And then on the other side, you get a board. So literally I have several boards here but one of them here and so in the video, this is the, the version and the more recent version of the board that you see on the slide. So you get it, and that means you can plug it into the USB and it works right away. There's no, there's no hassle with that. That cycle makes it easy for anybody that deals with Raspberry Pi or Arduino-like systems, they can actually do that. Yeah. So what Efabless added is what you know, is to create a full bath with building pieces that we believe are housekeeping that anybody will do when you just want them to work. And the, I call this, instead of getting a lot on a house, you get a frame house with electricity and plumbing. And you start moving in.  


10:30 | John Cole 

So, I started out with my design, I get my software from Efabless. 


10:34 | Mohamed Kassem 

You mentioned the limitations, you said that, what are the limitations of that. So, the the number one limitation, which is a limitation for some designs for classes, certain classes of designs, is there. So, the area here is 10 millimeters squares. That said, you can fit a lot in 10 millimeters square. Yeah, so the limitation here is the obviously, the area for a class of designs that surpasses this area, this is a 130 nanometer process. So, you have can put a lot. And the second so called limitation from the perspective of the semiconductor progress view or a Moore's Law view. This is 130 nanometer term I designed on this process, about 20 years ago, that was when it was in its inception. And now they're, you know, they were pushing the three nanometer and with TSMC, and others, the so somebody, some designs require faster proof of high performance with lower power. So that's the, we, if you have a strict power requirements, you'd have to do it in the design rather than the process. So, these are the current limitations, technical limitations, the sky's the limit, and we have seen more than 400designs last year, coming from all over the globe, whether it's open source or not. And people areusing it and and fitting in. 


12:12 | John Cole  

It's a great trade off. And you're sort of allowing just a much broader access, even though it's not the latest process, no, just get more people coming up with more designs. 


12:21 | Mohamed Kassem 

And it costs. The cost and the cost helps because this is so when you know this cost for the for a customer $10,000. So, there's a test that I like one of my friends said, so for a million dollars, you can do 100 designs. Typically, you will say one design, I need multiple millions. So today in today's world, and more advanced, and obviously that we're not going to have a phone processor done this way. But there are many applications, especially on the IoT, like edge devices. 


12:59 | John Cole  

So, you mentioned you ran 400 designs approximately last year, what's an example of a project or maybe a chip that was made that maybe wouldn’t have been made had Efabless hadn’t been there h is just particularly proud of? 


13:12 | Mohamed Kassem  

Well, the two, there's a major pull on workforce development in the United States. And when we made that program available before we even announced it, we tested it with universities, and started, people started ordering and said, Well, how do I get it? And they enstated a new course, that that delivers. Through the course, students will design something and delivered. The I triple E started a whole new program for encouraging people to come to chip design. So, they're using our platform for that. The different places and you know, so it enables, if only, there's that feature, coolness. So, you find things like people haven't built a sleep apnea device or around, wakey wakey, that was a design name. That's basically a wake word that listens to a wake word, and it does something. So they're not necessarily products because they're majorly community. There are other startups that are doing this, and obviously, we, we don't know what their designs are, unless they, they want to know and but we're solving startups would come to us and say I wouldn't have been able to start this or think about it at all. Now I can actually do three in parallel and test different things. And, you know, instead of actually having very expensive one run.  


14:50 | John Cole 

So quickly and inexpensively with just low overhead just getting to market. There's a great analogy here to Arduino, which I'm sure a lot of our users a least know a little bit about, sorry, our our listeners know a little bit about. How I got my start with that micro sort of microcontroller design using Arduino. And when it first came out, wasn't the fastest or wasn't the best. But their view their grand vision was wasn't really cohesive, it was just getting more tools into more people's hands, and allow them to do what you know, and sort of enable them to execute on their vision. So similar story for 3D printing and wrap around. And this sounds like a new, you know, another great tool that's going to come out and enable a lot of people to kind of implement their vision. So that's pretty cool. Have you have you accomplished the 14-year-old making the silicon yet? 


15:43 | Mohamed Kassem 

So I have a message on Twitter direct message on Twitter saying to me, you need to change the number to nine. So, so I haven't done it yet that one of our partners, and actually one of the people that works with us on the who has never designed a chip, before announcing the program, he learned and he's created a company a business around teaching, people how to make their own chips. Typically, in the semiconductor space, somebody who doesn't know chips wants to teach people who can make chips, that doesn't check out then. But if you actually think about it, and how he does it, he basically creates a simple examples where people can have a few gates and putting together and it looks to them, like just a little schematic, you don't even have to worry about how it's made. But at the end of the day, you're going to get a chip that they can test with the board, they have that little design, so he aggregates 16, 16 pieces of designs in there. And then and then have, you know, then when the chip comes back, they every design is addressable. So the, the he created something called tiny, his name is Matt Vin. And, and he created the tinytapeout.com. And that is literally a tinytapeout, this is where a nine, nine-year-old actually got in. 


17:14 | John Cole 

That's great. Well, you mentioned I mean, that's, that's workforce development right there right there, hopefully future workforce, but you kind of touched on workforce earlier, but we're about to onshore, hopefully, a lot of semi manufacturing back into the U.S. in Washington is just about ready to invest $100 billion into this industry, a lot of that money is going into infrastructure, new plants, new facilities, what needs to happen in your view, to human capital to sort of, to make sure that we can make the most of all that investment? 


17:50 | Mohamed Kassem 

So, I always separate the manufacturing from the design, they are two different problems. And if you create manufacturing, which is I think it's great that the government is doing this. I think, in my opinion, if the government subsidizes a program, there has to be a way to sustain it without continuous government money. So that's on the manufacturing side. On the design side, or workforce development there, you can split it into, you know, fab fabrication, manufacturing talent and target it to that. And design talent we have a problem here in the United States is that there's there are not enough people that are interested in getting into this industry. So, it's so you can some people call it the invisible industry because it's in everything but it is not really known that this is doing the, have an impact on every aspect of our life. And so raising awareness early and breaking the the enigma that making your own chip is just impossible. Making it easy. One of the things that we're working on is that to convert it completely to Python programming. So if you know Python, I can get you to to design a piece of a chip. Okay, so we're and this is actually that part of the simplification, so it goes down. So there are programs on in robotics and some of the STEM programs. So my goal is to get that not all of them obviously, because not everyone needs a chip, but at least they know that they have that ability to do, to create a chip custom chip. Some people do it just they build a simple design because they wanted to go through the cycle and understand it so they can say I did it okay. And then they can refine and come up with them. So, the there is a need for raising awareness in an effective way engaging with and then there are programs coming out like for example, I haven't seen that happen ever, actually, maybe years ago. But there's a documentary coming up. sponsored by the SEMI foundation. And that documentary is about the industry and what, what is? Where is it in our life, and it's about a few, a few team members visiting the manufacturing facilities and understanding some of these impacts. 


20:28 | John Cole 

Yeah, it looked really, really compelling. Like, I think a few of them had rented a Winnebago and drove around a different facilities in the U.S. just interviewing people up and down the whole stack and what they were doing, yeah, that's great. So, sort of exposes them and allows students that are...  


20:44 | Mohamed Kassem 

...more and more importantly, it's the world so that, basically you want that in the living rooms. And then the maximum of, the best thing you can do is to have the children or the as early as students, or as late as early as possible, see the options. And then you can choose, if you don't show them the option, they will never choose it. Choose it later, later. So that's, that's what we think we should do. And I do think that it needs to be national in we have so many universities, and institutions, in the community colleges, for example, in the there is a lack of, in my opinion, there is a need for a coherent national program, rather than step one, you know, that we say we have, you know, $200 million for workforce development for the NSF that, well, are they going to be? How are they going to be distributed differently than before? So, I, I'm watching for these things. And I think they have good people that are looking at these things, and what we need to make sure that that we get down to earlier in this in schools.  


22:06 | John Cole 

You're clearly not waiting for, like a national strategy I saw you're involved with Purdue’s new semiconductor degree program, on the leadership board for that, for that program. And when I think about, you know, folks that are going into the industry today come with specializations or maybe specific parts of the semiconductor design process or production, maybe chemical engineering or material science or computer engineering, software development. Why do you think we need a degree specifically in semiconductors now? 


22:38 | Mohamed Kassem 

One of the very interesting things, the first time it was raised to me, I was working with the Air Force on a program, it was public, it was not classified or anything, it was a challenge. And then I knew several members of the teams there. And then one of them said, we have a problem, Houston. So what is it and said, We don't have enough U.S. citizens that are in the in the, in this industry. So we have, we have a depletion of that. 


23:14 | John Cole 

When you're talking to the Air Force, they need American citizens that they need sort of two-fold they need somebody with the engineering degree, but also some as an American citizen that can have a clearance at the appropriate level to work on whatever technology. 


23:29 | Mohamed Kassem 

Correct, and, and the and that is actually, you know, it, you can call it a national security problem eventually, especially with the direction that the geopolitics is just reshaping and doing going in a different direction where, you know, compartmentalization, more than globalization. So that said, there, there is another interesting statistic that came from the NSF years ago, says that in the graduate schools in the United States, the, the top 10, when they looked at the, where the undergraduate degrees were coming from. So, you know, so United States graduate schools, looking at where did the students come from, for these degrees for the graduate degrees? The NSF had that said, basically, the top 10 universities two in China two in Iran, one Pakistan. And so the top 10 don't include a U.S. university. The first university is Georgia Tech number 23. So that is actually a stunning statistic to show that it's not a problem with the schools or it shows that there aren't people interested in advanced degrees in that area. And some people talked about immigration reform. So, to address that so there are many aspects around the, around the getting the workforce development addressed. 


25:07 | John Cole 

So, really interesting. Yeah, I always viewed like, one of America's sort of advantages, like, if you assume that talent is dispersed globally kind of evenly, right? Anybody can be born with like talent or creativity, then anybody can grow up. If the system works, anybody can grow up and become an American. Right. And so that's, that's an advantage, as long as we can continue to attract those people here to come do those things that, you know, that always be an advantage. 


25:39 | Mohamed Kassem 

The one thing I say here, because so we get contacted by programs in different countries, Europe, and the Middle East, for workforce development, they have problems in getting the talent to supply their current operations or design centers. Yeah. And they take from each other. And so if it's, if you're a big company, that's wouldn't you know, and, you know, create or kneecap you. But if you're 20-person company, and you get to lose five for another company, you're getting it. So, so it is a, it is a problem, and it is actually, here, we have a similar problem. And we need to increase the pool that we're starting with, so that the, when it shrinks through the graduate schools would have enough more than zero.  


26:38 | John Cole 

Yeah. So those, those countries you talked about, outside the U.S. are approaching? Do they have national level sort of strategies set up and they're approaching you have like, so, way to say, let's do this, you know, for thousands of students? 


26:54 | Mohamed Kassem 

So absolutely. So beyond belief that I would, I would actually, because I was get contacted by different programs. So I, as I said, I grew up in Egypt. So I'm a member of a committee that that basically wrote the, again, stars aligned, will not work, through the good work of a village. Right. Then we ended up with the president of Egypt, asking some one of us, not me, but that somebody on the ground in Egypt, tell me what do you need to make your way you have 30 companies in semiconductor space? How do you double that? So, we, we got a white paper written for, for the president, it got approved line by line. Yeah. And budget and everything. This is where it's interesting, because there was an executive order. Versus the is a training program of 12,000 people, five of them are semiconductor based, semiconductor focused, and 7,000 are embedded development in automotive and security. And this is the founding proven it's going to be national. And it's about to start. 


28:17 | John Cole 

Yeah, that's an effective scale to 12,000 students at a time, right? 


28:21 | Mohamed Kaseem 

Yes. And that is, and it's, if you think about that number, and you scale it to the U.S. needs. It is. I don't think we're spending enough to be honest with you, like the numbers, we were talking about $10,000 per student out of the 12,000, okay, if you do that here, you you will surpass any budget that you've heard of about workforce development. So... 


28:51 | John Cole 

You can see almost, you know, in almost every aspect of the CHIPS Act workforce is kind of tied in or sewn in, it's called out in the law in a couple of different places. And I think the reflex when we're sort of talking about workforce development is to sort of look over at academia, and of course, look for the funding from government and talk about curriculum and STEM programs. What do you what do you think the industry can do better to sort of make this work? 


29:17 | Mohamed Kassem 

So, the industry, I mean, it's actually very difficult to actually talk about it in, okay, I'm gonna try to be objective here. The industry is the ultimate, the ultimate consumer, the talent, right. And they, if you go to companies, you will find they have a university program. They have a dedicated, maybe a team interfacing with universities. The goal there was, is to get injected products or their students in so they can learn recently in the Purdue first board meeting, for the semiconductor degrees board, the there is a request for actual course content to be developed by the industry. And, so and that is actually unique, when you get a course the industry knows exactly what you want. And, you, you shape content and material that with not just one course it would be several skill sets. And they would, this is something that I haven't seen at a scale, okay. There are other ways of doing that, like the industry would work with university to fund a specific project. So, to that fit, that is useful for their business, there's something that the SRC, there's many avenues. The, what I, what I, what I don't see is that the some sort of deliberate effort to need to have a baseline that is very high, that is high. Versus I'm, I have a simple statistic, and I just done if you have 1,000, universities in the United States, okay, more or more, how many of them are actually coupled to the industry. I don't have a number, but I'm guessing less than 25%, less than 25%, that has connections to university, and apartment, don't quote me on that I just made up that number based on because it isn't what I see. So,.I see major universities have a lot of good partnerships with the industry. And then there's some universities that have the degrees and the great talent suppliers or talent, they have great programs, but they're not, they're not supported properly in the industry. So, starting there is not a bad idea, the make these universities have more resources, and the lift, the lift will be high, if you do it. And across, you know, universities that are not, or underserved. 


32:10 | John Cole  

Maybe that's the advantage of the Purdue program that focuses just on semiconductors, that just makes it easy for industry to make those direct connections for hiring pipelines and curriculum and building the workforce that they really need. 


32:24 | Mohamed Kassem 

Yeah, and then there are many, multiple ways like I, you know, to engage them. So one of the things is absolutely, at the university, I went to University of Waterloo enforces that one of the three, quarter three, quarter three terms in the, in the, in the school in the kind of year, one of them has to be an internship or co-op. Time of graduated, you have four of these in the, in your four, for four months internships, or, and it's a requirement. So, and there is a fair the companies would come in and so increasing that is very important, because it starts to naturally measure the what the students would know, with real industry. The other thing that I've seen very useful, and I'm sure that exists outside Purdue, but the there's a Purdue has a programs called the vertical integration program, where they have a team that's constructed of students vertically, so from freshmen all the way to the senior or graduate school, and you have that team working on a project. And the course is solving a real problem. And the courses that they take, there's a baseline of courses that you have to take. And they take the courses that support this project. And this is very interesting, because you get the freshmen to work with a senior student or graduate school, soon. And then. So, there you can slice and dice that I see these are as great programs that can be scaled. They asked me, you know, one of the things that inputs that I give to the board is like, why didn't you make that? You know, 50x or instead of, you know, X number of students, multiplied by, you know, 50.  


34:25 | John Cole 

Yeah, going kind of at the national scale, right, like, just, just needs to go. Well, wouldn't it also ask, I know, coming back to Efabless, you all just announced a partnership, Google, SkyWater, Global Foundries. I think you just signed a partnership with SkyWater and Google. That's really big news. Those are some big partners to join up with what's, what's the plan there. 


34:51 | Mohamed Kassem 

Well, so it started through again, interesting sequence of events that, you know, SkyWater, saw the benefit of an open source PDK, which is the representation of the process, it's not the actual technology, it's the models that you need to use to build the design. So, the theory was very simple, or the premise is very simple. If I make it available to thousands of people, their chances of hitting designs from get a customer, it's going to be higher. So, Google, we arranged that partnership with Google got in engaged and obviously for the brand and funding in this, since this partnership started, Google has been funding every four, we'll say four shuttles a year on SkyWater processes. And the, so there were four last year. And the today there this year is four we just announced the last one establishes is doing all the all the engineering work required to make these programs work. So, whether it's getting the tools basically organized in a flow that somebody can use it easily, or the shuttle management or the, the development, developing the chip caravel. So, this has been great. And actually, it led into two things. So, in order to make that a bigger program, we always thought that we need to include other foundries. And so we showed the results of the number of designs, explosion, number of designs on Sky 132, several foundries including Global Foundries management. And to their credit, they looked at it and they understood that there's a potential here, it helped that there were data available on scalability. And also, we got Google involved in that case, as well, and that helped. So now Global Foundries as well launched, the program will have the same Google to 180 nanometer process. And so it is it's getting bigger and expansive. The we had, we are doing something new. So we're, we're doing you know, there, there were some hiccups in the, in the Getting things on time and things like that, when it's moving in the right direction. And, and there's more coming, I just can't speak of it. But, but is it that that dynamic that it was created to Google and foundries it started just avalanching, it will be more be a big change in the industry. 


37:49 | John Cole 

Great, so just getting started. 


37:52 | Mohamed Kassem 

And I don't know if you saw this, but there is we made the same pitch to the Navy crane team. And they got excited, very excited about the premise of having an open source process. And in July, there was a DoD announcement that SkyWater will open source, the 99 nanometer PDK. And that has again, so we're going to be doing the engineering work for that. But this is the United States government actually endorsing that program. And which is, you know, something that, you know, a lot of good validation and also gives a more teeth to the program as you go forward. And lower and lower. Smaller nodes. 


38:44 | John Cole 

That's great, wow. Yeah. Big partners like that. It sounds like just going to, like you said, just start snowballing and keep going. That's fantastic. Mohamed, you and Efabless, well on your way, you know, you have a message for other innovators that are out there trying to do something big in the semiconductor market or in the semiconductor innovation space. What's that message? 


39:06 | Mohamed Kassem 

So the first message in the semiconductor space is that it is not the same don't look at the semiconductor industry as the way it was two years or three years ago. The with that partner, partnership with Google, Global Foundries, SkyWater, Efabless, we all, as a village takes a village as all say, created a new structure of the economics. That will make it much easier to get into doing to make you think about a custom chip. Now, not everything requires a custom chip. But come to Efabless, and you try something just to know that it's possible. And it's a tool in your hand too. to exercise it when needed, versus it's a brick wall, I don't know how to get there. And it's something for the big companies to do. So, so there, you can have a prototype chip or minimum or a low volume chip under $10,000 for 300 parts. And then you can go from there all the way to, you know, thousands of units. Within, you can add $20,000, you get 1,000 units. So, so now, if you think about that, the other economic, the traditional economic structure for that it wouldn't be possible. So, assume, think about that. Now, on the other in the semiconductor space, they always solve a real problem, because that's actually wins. And, and I see it when you start thinking about some something to solve like this, something like the the the airports wouldn't be possible to do it this way. Unless you think that you can have a custom chip. Otherwise, you'd have to live with the form factor of what you get. Yeah. So it gives you better design, for example. So solving real problems. And, and that means in agriculture, medicine, health, education, all of that. 


41:24 | John Cole 

So, solve a real problem. Just get off the couch and do it because this has lowered the cost and lowered the technical barriers and lowered the time to bring it to market or to get the prototype turned right. 


41:39 | Mohamed Kassem 

There's yeah, there's a huge number of examples that can be just available on our website, from people trying things, new things that wouldn't have been possible before. 


41:50 | John Cole 

Yeah. Well, Mohamed, thanks for taking the time to share so much today about the fabulous and the great work you're doing and we hope to have you back again soon. 


41:59 | Mohamed Kassem 

Well, thank you very much for having me. Looking forward to talking again.